cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Updates on Nest Protect and pending Scottish legislation changes

RachelC
Community Manager (Admin)
Community Manager (Admin)

Hey everyone, 

I appreciate everyone’s patience as they’ve shared their feedback and questions regarding the pending Scottish legislation changes. We’re aware of the proposed legislation changes to the fire and smoke alarm standard in Scotland requiring households to have interlinked heat and smoke alarms. Nest Protect cannot function as a heat alarm due to specific hardware and functional requirements of those devices. So, beginning February 2022,  Nest Protects will not meet these new requirements due lack of interconnection with a compatible heat alarm. 

At this time, there are no current plans to produce a heat alarm and we do understand this is not ideal for many of our Scottish customers, but you can still use your Nest Protect as a smoke and carbon monoxide alarm as an addition to your interconnected system. We understand these options may not be suitable for everyone so we ask if you have any additional questions around next steps for your Nest Protect, you can contact support to get additional details.

We ask that you continue to refer to the guidance of your fire and local authorities and we’ll also share any updates and changes as they arise. 

Thanks,

Rachel

132 REPLIES 132

JASH
Community Member

Google advised that Gen2 did have a heat sensor here... "Heat sensor - Heat sensor enables Nest Protect to detect sudden rises in temperature." 

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9251133?hl=en

This was the reason I bought them as they would be compliant with the government's legislation but it now looks like Google are back peddling on this info suggesting now it's wrong. I've contacted Nest support whom have now confirmed that gen2 can only detect smoke and carbon monoxide. They admit it does have a heat sensor but that it only detects smoke, which is nonsense if you read what they were advising previously.

Very misleading and would suggest Google respond. 

NickB
Community Member

See similar discussion here: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Heat-Detectors-to-meet-new-legislation/td-p/5695...

Where people discuss google providing a firmware update to the gen2 to disable the smoke detector, so that only the heat detector operates, as required by the new Scottish legislation. But that has not happened, possibly because it's not possible.

diaveldes
Community Member

Yes the system doesn't  become defective but as you rightly say it also DOES NOT meet the MANDATORY requirements of the Scottish regulations and so effectively becomes pointless as any home with this system will need to buy a second system that meets the requirements.

AFU
Community Member

Can anyone point to the exact wording that says these are non-compliant. I understand that it will be true in most cases but I really hope that in our specific case we're ok.

We bought 2 Nest Protects, one for our open plan kitchen / living room and one for the hall.  My reading of the regulations is that the one in the open-plan should be a heat alarm, but it doesn't say must. In legislation there is usually a distinction drawn between the meaning of those two word. 

diaveldes
Community Member

Here's the Web link.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/

I can't find a way to post a screen shot. It's specifically mentioned in the where and what to buy. 

 

Ballsy
Community Member

AFU
Community Member

Thanks, read that already and that's where it says "should", so as far as I'm concerned I'm ok, but I've emailed the Scottish government advice line in any case.

diaveldes
Community Member

"Should" do you have a context for the should? The requirement is mandatory and the Nest system doesn't meet the requirements? 

AFU
Community Member

My understanding is that yes, in most cases it doesn't comply as it's not a EN rated heat alarm. However, the regulations and guidance clearly state in the case of open plan:

Where a dwelling has an open plan layout, the open plan area will also be used as a circulation space (which could include a stair and landing). The location and siting of smoke alarms and heat detectors should follow both the guidance above and in Clause 2.11.7 to determine the appropriate number of alarms.

Where the access room is a kitchen, the type of detector should be carefully considered to reduce the likelihood of false alarms.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-standards-2017-domestic/2-fire/211-communication/

I'm 100% not saying "I'm right" here, I just think that for our specific case it could be argued that we are compliant. We've had 1 false alarm in the open plan in 2 years, and it was pretty smokey! 

 

Also, from here:

https://www.mygov.scot/home-fire-safety

Examples

If you live in a one bedroom flat, you will need two smoke alarms and one heat alarm. 

A 3 bedroom, 2 storey house will need 3 smoke alarms and one heat alarm. 

If you have an open plan living room and kitchen you only need to have one alarm in this space and it should be a heat alarm.

Whatever the size your home, if you have a carbon fuelled appliance like a boiler, you will also need a carbon monoxide detector.

Again, should, not must. Other bits of guidance clearly state that the choice of alarm should reflect the lowest risk of false alarm. We have a small kitchen in a big open plan area, I want that to be a smoke alarm, not a heat alarm as it would need to be quite a fire before the heat alarm detected it.

Maxx
Community Member

It clearly says need...

What you need to do

If you are a homeowner, it's your responsibility to make sure your home meets the new fire alarms standard.

By February 2022 every home will need to have:

  • 1 smoke alarm in the room you spend most of the day, usually your living room
  • 1 smoke alarm in every circulation space on each storey, such as hallways and landings
  • 1 heat alarm in the kitchen

All smoke and heat alarms should be mounted on the ceiling and be interlinked.

DrDreMYI
Community Member

I see where you’re coming from but in legal terms “should” indicates an obligation. I also wouldn’t recommend that you base whether your house is insured on Symantics. Lastly, the Scottish government gave made it clear that nest is not currently compliant.

 

we just need to accept we’ve been abandoned by Google who took our money and ran for the hills.

 

I’ll be contacting Google to explain that I bought 4 protects with a stated lifespan in  our legal jurisdiction which requires their services to be only and available to deliver all capabilities of the device. In the same way that they should be expected to work as describe for a reasonable period of time… I feel it’s a reasonable expectation that they would ensure continued legal compliance in our jurisdiction or hear the burden of telling us their devices are no longer legal to use.

 

so which is it Google? Are you negligent in telling us the service we’ve paid for is no longer legal? Or are you negligent is not opening up the platform to allow other systems to fill the gap.

 

you could have done both of these with minimal effort.

NickB
Community Member

This page https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/ states:
"Please note that the Nest Protect System will not meet the standard. This is because they do not meet the requirements for a heat alarm under the relevant British Standard. British Standard (BS 5839-6:2019) states that only heat alarms should be installed in kitchens."

I'm guessing you're assuming that use of the word 'should' instead of 'must' means you are ok?
Given that both the Scottish Government and Nest themselves have gone to lengths to specifically identify the Nest Protect as not meeting the standard required by the upcoming new law, that seems a tenuous assumption at best. It'll be interesting what further information you get in reply from the Scottish Government to your email....

AFU
Community Member

@NickB wrote:

This page https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/ states:
"Please note that the Nest Protect System will not meet the standard. This is because they do not meet the requirements for a heat alarm under the relevant British Standard. British Standard (BS 5839-6:2019) states that only heat alarms should be installed in kitchens."

I'm guessing you're assuming that use of the word 'should' instead of 'must' means you are ok?
Given that both the Scottish Government and Nest themselves have gone to lengths to specifically identify the Nest Protect as not meeting the standard required by the new the law, that seems a tentative assumption at best. It'll be interesting what further information you'll get from the Scottish Government to your email....


Precisely. We have building warrant ongoing, so we'll see if that gets approved. If so, then all good.

NickB
Community Member

It's worth noting that above law does not come in to effect until February 2022, though at that point it applies to all homes, not just new/modified homes.

AFU
Community Member

True, but if we get the nod from building warrant I can't see how it could not then be deemed compliant? Certainly as far as insurance is concerned. 

NickB
Community Member

The building warrant will relate only to current law.
The new law, come February, is retroactive and applies to all homes, not just newly built or those having modifications done.

For example my home with 4 wired Nest alarms may comply with current laws, but come February if the above statement from Nest and that Scottish Government website are true then it will no longer be and I will need to replace Nest alarms with a compliant system.

Ballsy
Community Member

I've seen where you get the "should" but it says this:

 

"What you need to do

If you are a homeowner, it's your responsibility to make sure your home meets the new fire alarms standard.

 

By February 2022 every home will need to have:

 

one smoke alarm in the room you spend most of the day, usually your living room

one smoke alarm in every circulation space on each storey, such as hallways and landings

one heat alarm in the kitchen

All smoke and heat alarms should be mounted on the ceiling and be interlinked.

 

If you have a carbon-fuelled appliance, like a boiler, fire, heater or flue you must also have a carbon monoxide detector. This does not need to be linked to the fire alarms. "

AFU
Community Member

If you have an open plan living room and kitchen you only need to have one alarm in this space and it should be a heat alarm

Should, not must. Yes, it's very tenuous, but the law is always tested on these minutiae. 

 

Ballsy
Community Member

I think you're holding onto some sort of false hope bud, "should" implies obligation.

 

The alarms must meet "BS" standards which the nest products don't 🤷🏻‍♂️, even Nest themselves have said their products don't meet this. Regards of your building warrant getting "the nod" your home won't be insured properly or meet the new Scottish legislation.

AFU
Community Member

Quite possibly false hope...

But, Nest Protect is compliant as a smoke alarm, just not a heat detector: 

Google Nest Protect has been tested to comply with certification standards in various regions and countries including the United States, Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom and Australia.

The reliability of your smoke and carbon monoxide alarm is critical to your safety. Certification is a rigorous process, and Protect’s specifications were filed with leading safety certification agencies.

Nest Protect complies with the following smoke and carbon monoxide alarm standards:

  • UL 2034, 4th edition – 'Single and multiple station carbon monoxide alarms'
  • UL 217, 8th edition – 'Smoke alarms'
  • CSA 6.19-17 – 'Residential carbon monoxide alarming devices'
  • CAN/ULC-S531-14 – 'Standard for smoke alarms'
  • EN-14604:2005 – 'Smoke alarm devices'
  • EN-50291-1:2018 – 'Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises'
  • AS 3786-2014 – 'Smoke alarms using scattered light, transmitted light or ionisation'

NickB
Community Member

The reason they will not comply with the new law come February is that they do not comply with BS 5839-6:2019, as stated by both Nest themselves and the Scottish Government.

diaveldes
Community Member

Unfortunately unless someone lives in a house without a kitchen (don't know of any personally) then it is no use in Scotland. 

AFU
Community Member

No response yet from the Scottish Government, but our insurance has confirmed they don't care and will still cover us, so I'm not throwing them out yet. 

ZombieBoy
Community Member

Given that we're all here because Nest Smoke Detectors aren't fit for purpose, and were an utter waste of money, what are people looking at as a replacement for them? I certainly don't want to be burned a second time, and I think Google owe us an opportunity to discuss how we can legally protect our homes after buying Nest.

Any recommendations?

We can only wish. Google won’t do sh*t

Tinsoldier82
Community Member

Ridiculous as the owner of 7 nest protects I am absolutely outraged

GeoffC
Community Member

mmm.

 

Good job my nest protects have started to refuse to connect to my router, and I ended up on googlenest looking for a solution.

Only to discover I'm wasting my time!

As someone else has asked, what options do we have in replacement?  I have 10 units destined to become ceiling lights, if only they were powerful enough to allow me to use them jnstead of the ceiling lights.

billsomervail
Community Member

I knew about this problem a year ago, but was not worried as discussions suggested that Nest would:-

1) produce a heat detecter for Nest 

2) activate the suposed Heat dection unit in Nest Protect

3) recomend a Nest compatible Heat Dection unit

It appears that none of these options have been acted upon.

There have only been suggestions that homes using Nest Protect in Scotland will be risking  making their home insurance null and void in evemt of a fire.

Very sad if you live in Scotland with an out of touch Goverment and an in flexible Heat and Smoke alarm supplier.

If anyone can resolve this please help, dont really want to replace my Nest System, but dont want to have to run two systems either.

Regards

 

Bill Somervail

 

 

coolju
Community Member

Hi Google Nest Protect owners in Scotland,

Has anyone actually had any luck with Google Customer Support on this topic? - I contacted them as recommended above by the Community Manager 'RachelC'.

I am still going around in circles with support several months later.

Google Support finally asked me to send my receipts and serial numbers last month for the 9x Nest Protects we own.  As they said they finally DID have a process in place to refund customers.  I immediately sent them.

They then replied back, after chasing, that they actually DIDN'T have a process in place, and had no solution.

Since then they haven't replied to my requests for an update (last reply was 12 days ago).

I really find the way Google is treating Scottish customers on this topic absolutely appalling.  I can't remember the last time I had such poor poor service.

There also seems no way to escalate this issue in Google - unless anyone knows?

A very very frustrated customer...

Maxx
Community Member

I was also a bit shocked at the way such a well known company has treated a country.

Only question i have asked is if you can recycle the 2nd generation Nest protect or are they safe to throw in the trash but never did find out.

Only saving grace is that i found out how bad they are before upgrading to latest phone 😀

RT15
Community Member

Glad I read this before purchasing the Nest. Seems I'll put my cash elsewhere now to avoid buying an expensive ornament!

FM484
Community Member

Hi Rachel, I am affected by the Scottish government stating that Google nest protect do not comply with BS 5839-6:2019, however please note that according to Rules for the structure and drafting of UK standards Table 3 – Verbal forms Verbal form  Implication Typical context 

 
shall requirement (see  7.2) normative element of a specification or test method 
should recommendation (see  7.3) normative element of a code of practice or guide informative  element of a specification or test method  
 
7.2 Requirements See the definition given in  3.3.3. The auxiliary verb “shall” is used to  indicate requirements that have to be followed strictly in order to claim compliance with the  document. In British Standards the  auxiliary verb “shall” is  mainly used  in specifications, although it may also be used  in test methods. It should not be used at all  in  codes of practice or guides, or in informative text in any standard. EXAMPLE 1 Connectors shall conform to  the  electrical characteristics specified  in  IEC 60603-7-1. The imperative mood is frequently used to express requirements  in procedures or test methods. EXAMPLE 2 Switch  on the recorder… Do not use “must” as an alternative for “shall”. (This will avoid any confusion between  the requirements of a document and external constraints – see  7.6.) Do not use “may not” instead of “shall not” to express a prohibition. 
 
7.3 Recommendations See the definition given in  3.3.4. The auxiliary verb “should” is used  to  express recommendations. In a specification or test  method, the auxiliary verb “should”  is used only in informative text (i.e. notes, commentary  or informative annexes). In a specification, recommendations may be used  to indicate  that among several possibilities one is recommended as  particularly suitable, without mentioning  or excluding others, or that a certain course of action is preferred but not necessarily required, or that (in the negative form) a certain possibility or course of action is  deprecated  but not prohibited. In a code of  practice or guide, recommendations constitute the  provisions of the standard and they should therefore not be used in informative text. EXAMPLE  1 (a note in a specification) NOTE  Wiring  of these connectors should take into  account the wire and cable diameter of the cables defined in IEC 61156. EXAMPLE 2  (a provision in a code of practice) Processes should be determined for maintenance and  testing of fire safety systems. 
 
So the on the basis of the scottish building standard the Google nest protect product should be in compliance albeit has an additional smoke sensor but this is only to prevent false alarms but should this not be down to the owner occupier accepting this additional alarm, for myself I would like to be notified so as I can act on this alarm and prevent potential fire occurring, I can press the mute button if required, so is easily managed.
 
Another point is I have an open plan kitchen dining main sitting area and therfore requires both heat and smoke alarms and then the Google Nest protect is the alarm which has all necessary sensors for this area plus co2 as an added protection.
 
I think the product users would also like to know if Google is trying to protect its product and the customers who have purchased them and is Google giving its input to get the building standard formed correctly to ensure we are complying and also not having to double pay for products and the costs which will be associated to redecorate our homes in addition to the impact this may have on the Scottish Google product customers.
 
Thanks
Frank

GeoffC
Community Member

I've decided my best course of action is to put a compliant set of units alongside the Nest Protect. The Protects are informative and descriptive whilst many other types are not. At least we'll know where trouble is and we don't accidentally run the wrong way! Plus the coloured lights on the Nest are more useful for me as a deaf person.

 

One issue, @Frank, is the Protects use the router for communication, a supposed weakness according to both Google and the SG.

FM484
Community Member

I believe the router communication was just for sending notifications to your phone and there is a separate interlinking, which does not require WiFi, suppose an easy way to test that is to turn off your WiFi and press the test button on the Protect

NickB
Community Member

Nest alarms to not interconnect with each other using wifi via a home router, that is just for setup and remote notification. They use "Weave" to interconnect which is based on IEEE 802.15.4 and is sort of like "ZigBee".
See my replies earlier in this thread: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect-and-pending-Scottish-leg...
https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect-and-pending-Scottish-leg...




GeoffC
Community Member

Nest Fire Alarms Are Wi-Fi Interlinked

Google Nest Protect system can be wirelessly interlinked to create a safe circuit around your home, by fitting different Nest Smoke alarms units in different areas. However, this does not comply with the Scottish Legislation 2022 as the wireless fire alarms should connect through an internal circuit of radio-frequencies, while Nest Smoke Alarms use the Wi-Fi of your home.

In case there is a blaze in your home which starts from your router, the Nest Smoke Alarms would not be able to communicate the danger as the Wi-Fi communication could be faulty.

 

That's the section I  was referring to. Perhaps Fireguard have it wrong?

NickB
Community Member

Yes, I believe that Fireguard have that wrong. Nest protect devices interconnect with each other using "Weave" IEEE 802.15.4 RF, not Wi-fi. So in that regard they do comply with the legislation.

Quoting from https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9232615?hl=en#zippy=%2Chow-nest-protects-connect-with-e...

 

Nest Protects connect wirelessly using a Nest-developed protocol called Weave that lets Nest Protects communicate with one another safely and securely without an active Wi-Fi connection.

Weave uses 802.15.4 and Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g/n to create reliable, flexible, secure and low-power communication between Protects.

You can think of the 802.11b/g/n protocol as the connection that communicates with the outside world and performs tasks like automatically updating Nest Protect software or allowing you to get mobile notifications on your phone. You can think of the 802.15.4 protocol as the low-power connection that lets Nest Protects communicate with each other.

This means your Protects can continue to talk to one another, and can let you know when smoke or carbon monoxide is detected in other parts of the home, even if your Wi-Fi network goes down.

 

That they do not have a heat only alarm, and having a user replaceable battery model, is a different matter, and don't comply with the legislation.

JoeMcDougall
Community Member

Absolutely appalled by this announcement. 

Aside from the "two fingers" to Scottish users, and no consideration to English rules around newbuilds, ALL your customers would be safer with this feature.

Google just don't care.

I'm beyond cross at the corporate disregard for safety.

I don't think the safety is being jeopardised by using Nest Protect, as the only issue is there is an additional smoke alarm in a kitchen which may potentially cause a nuisance to the homeowner, personally I want a smoke alarm in my kitchen as my children's bedrooms are above and the smoke alarm may give me more time should there ever be a fire, of there is any other known safety issue then building standards would have highlighted that as a reason for stating it is in non compliance, also the BS standards which they have used is just recommendations, I can see why this may be a nuisance in a central fire alarm system in a block of flats, but not one family home. 

What I understand is a smoke alarm is the first indicator should a fire be starting or you are burning your toast (either way I'd like to know) and a heat alarm tells you your house is on fire.

Madmax
Community Member

This is very poor from a company like google but at least i am within the 14 days to return my set of nest alarms.

This also has an impact on buying any more google products in the future.