Nest Wifi / Google Wifi - Mixed - Part Wired - Multiple Questions - Backhaul, Arrangement, Limits

[Bluetoffe316]

(Not iOS specific)

I already have  4 Google Wifi Pucks (wired) as well as 2 Google Nest Routers and 2 Google Nest Wifi AP / Speakers, and I just received 2 more Google Wifi Pucks (wired) after switching to Google Fiber (which is excellent with <3ms ping and < 1ms jitter btw!).

I know I can’t use them all in one system (see questions) but have some questions about this mixed network and how I can use the equipment I have.

NOTE: A couple of years ago, I played with 6,7, and 8 device (Router/AP) arrangements in a rambling 2600sf 3 split-level ranch style home. There are some thick wooden walls (closets) and also a very large mirror in the living area. Ultimately, I ended up back at 5 devices for a more stable network, after reviewing this statement (or one like it) when I was having issues with what seemed like devices interfering with each other:

                  "Nest Wifi and Google Wifi are designed to support up to a total of 5 routers and points per network and aren’t intended to be used across multiple dwellings. "

Previously my Nest device acting as Router / Primary AP was in the family room but the Fober connect has moved with switching to Google Fiber, and now the router is far away from the kitchen … which raises some questions … 

My current network has the following:

1. GuestBR-Router: 1 Google Nest (router device) as Router and Primary AP (wired, obvs!) i.e. acting as THE router 
2. Living-AP: 1 Google Nest (router device) acting as a Wired AP for the main living area
3. Kitchen-AP: 1 Google Nest Wifi AP / Speaker with Wifi backhaul
4. MasterBR-AP: 1 Google Nest Wifi AP / Speaker with Wifi backhaul
5. Office-AP: 1 Google Wifi Puck (wired) this is required, even though close to Living-AP in distance, as they are separated by a massive 30ft x 8ft mirror!].

OBSERVATIONS

O1. MasterBR-AP Backhaul Speed - The MasterBR-AP Nest Wifi is OK, but not great - comes out as “GOOD”; it is about 30 feet from the Router / Primary AP, with a bathroom and washing machine in the way . This is not a major concern, but it’s interesting how it probably should be great and is not; there are not really any other places to put the connection in the MasterBR, so we will have to live with it. 

O2. Kitchen-AP Backhaul - The Kitchen-AP is connecting to the GuestBR-Router and not the Living-AP which is much closer. Even when I make it 20ft or 25ft in line of sight, it still uses the GuestBR-Router (PrimaryAP) instead for it’s backhaul.

QUESTIONS

Q1. MAXIMUM DEVICES - Why is the maximum number of devices marked as 5? Does that include all Router/AP devices, whether wired backhaul or not?

Q2. BACKHAUL OPTIMIZATION - Why does the kitchen AP not use the Living-AP (wired) for it’s backhaul? It would be the obvious thing to do … 

Q3. PROXIMITY GUIDELINES - How close is too close for items to work well together? With walls? Without walls in between?

Q4. OUTSIDE RANGE - How much outside range (from inside a window) should we expect from an Google Wifi AP vs. a Google Nest Wifi device (Router, AP if different)? I seem to get a better connection from Google Wifi AP outside, even though I am closer to the Google Nest Wifi ApPs (noting that the window of the office where the Google Wifi AP is coming from is old and NOT treated for efficiency at all).

Q5. MULTIPLE DWELLINGS - In the future we intend to add a mother-in-law suite and intend to hardwire it for backhaul. Is there any reason that wouldn’t work because of the “multiple-dwellings not being supported” or is that more of a guideline? What does that mean exactly in terms of limitations? (i.e. What is a “dwelling”?!) 

[olavrb · Accepted solution]

Q1. I think 5 devices is a recommendation for wireless devices mainly, because a lot of the wireless bandwidth goes to waste on the wireless backhaul. But with that many points and wired backhaul, I'd at least make sure not to daisy chain them all, but preferably connect them all to an unmanaged switch behind the primary/ master puck.

Q2. "Mesh"/ 802.11s does not travel over ethernet. Thus, all wireless access pucks will connect back to the primary/ master one. Best to do here is to hardwire everything, get rid of add-on point without ethernet ports.

Q3.

• https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/7183150?hl=en
• https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/7182840?hl=en

Q4. None of Google/ Nest Wifi are directional. For best coverage outside, you could consider getting a suitable access point and hardwire it to your existing network.

Q5. Don't know.

[olavrb · Accepted solution]

Q1. I think 5 devices is a recommendation for wireless devices mainly, because a lot of the wireless bandwidth goes to waste on the wireless backhaul. But with that many points and wired backhaul, I'd at least make sure not to daisy chain them all, but preferably connect them all to an unmanaged switch behind the primary/ master puck.

Q2. "Mesh"/ 802.11s does not travel over ethernet. Thus, all wireless access pucks will connect back to the primary/ master one. Best to do here is to hardwire everything, get rid of add-on point without ethernet ports.

Q3.

• https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/7183150?hl=en
• https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/7182840?hl=en

Q4. None of Google/ Nest Wifi are directional. For best coverage outside, you could consider getting a suitable access point and hardwire it to your existing network.

Q5. Don't know.

[Bluetoffe316 · Accepted solution]

Thanks 

Q1 - no wired  AP are daisy-chained - they are all  behind an unmanaged switch which is behind the router/Primary AP, as you suggest

Q2 - I am a bit concerned by this response. If I understand correctly,  under 802.11s, all WirelessAP will ty to connect directly to the PrimaryAP - that just makes no sense to me, but I trust your input and will take it as fact. The only thing we lose from that, if I replace the Nest Wireless AP with Google Wifi Wired AP, is the fact that these AP have speakers that we use on a regular basiss. I am going to look into alternative speakers and hardwiring those locations instead.

          "Mesh"/ 802.11s does not travel over ethernet. Thus, all wireless access pucks will connect back to the primary/ master one. Best to do here is to hardwire everything, get rid of add-on point without ethernet ports.

Q3. Frankly, these data for SF. of home are garbage from my experience in my home. At least in the sense of having a fast Wifi (I consider that to be anything over 100 Mbps true internet speed, not just device speed). My home is fairly spread out on 3 split levels in 3 sections in a U, with think wood walls and closets as well as mechanical (HVAC, water) in the centre of the home and a very large full wall mirror completely segregating one section of the U.  We also have a large yard (0.5 acre, property is in one corner) which we want coverage across as well (see question 4). 

Q4. I will look into this; ideally I would be able to buy an outside AP that would plug into the Google Nest/Wifi Mesh I already have to provide seamless transitions. 

Q5. No worries - it seemed rather arbitrary that's all....

[olavrb]

The mesh/ 802.11s part struck me as a surprise when I read about it too. Here are some more sources on it.

• 210828 - "Google WiFi hardwired map Primary point and Child Point communications"
  https://www.reddit.com/r/GoogleWiFi/comments/pcyvk2
  • A very detailed reply by @MichaelP:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/GoogleWiFi/comments/pcyvk2/comment/han33p3
• 210104 - "Wired -> puck -> mesh -> puck"
  https://www.reddit.com/r/GoogleWiFi/comments/kqb62x
  • With one more very detailed reply from the same guy. 🙂
• 201218 - "Could someone confirm how the 'mesh' works?"
  https://www.reddit.com/r/GoogleWiFi/comments/kfj6l2
• 201214 - "If I can, should I connect all my pucks to ethernet?"
  https://www.reddit.com/r/GoogleWiFi/comments/kcl5or
• 201120 - "Nest WiFi- what is the max speed of the mesh network between the router and satellite points?"
  https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/84102497?hl=en
  • Taken down, here it is from Archive.org:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20210224123203/https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/84102497

[Bluetoffe316]

Great info. Allows me to stop moving the darned things around i.e. trying to get a Wireless AP to elicit a wired backhaul via a Wired AP 😬

[Jeff]

Hi, Bluetoffe316.

It looks like olavrb was able to provide a lot of helpful info there. Hopefully this gets you all sorted out. If there's anything else you need, please ask and I'll be happy to help out as well. Definitely let us know if things work for you!

Thanks.

[Jeff]

Hi, everyone.
Just one quick final check in here since activity has slowed down. We'll be locking the thread in the next 24 hours, but if you still need help, I would be happy to keep it open. If there's more we can do, just let me know.
Thanks.

[Bluetoffe316]

I have what I need. Basically, the backhaul needs to be all wired or all wireless. 

I have validated this; I removed a wireless AP from a zone where I had overlapping wired coverage, and performance improved because devices no longer defaulted to the wireless backhaul which was sketchy in that location.  Interesting that devices actually seemed to be directed to the least performant route (wireless AP) vs. the more performant (wired) route. 

Given that the wireless AP was Google Wifi AP with the speaker, I now need to go buy a Google Nest Audio to replace (and improve) the audio function.  

Thanks all for all the help. It was highly informative. OK from me to close the thread. 

[Jeff]

Thanks for chiming in again, Bluetoffe316.

I'll go ahead and close the thread, but definitely feel free to open a new discussion if there's anything else you need.

Thanks!