Updates on Nest Protect and pending Scottish legislation changes

[RachelC]

Hey everyone, 

I appreciate everyone’s patience as they’ve shared their feedback and questions regarding the pending Scottish legislation changes. We’re aware of the proposed legislation changes to the fire and smoke alarm standard in Scotland requiring households to have interlinked heat and smoke alarms. Nest Protect cannot function as a heat alarm due to specific hardware and functional requirements of those devices. So, beginning February 2022,  Nest Protects will not meet these new requirements due lack of interconnection with a compatible heat alarm. 

At this time, there are no current plans to produce a heat alarm and we do understand this is not ideal for many of our Scottish customers, but you can still use your Nest Protect as a smoke and carbon monoxide alarm as an addition to your interconnected system. We understand these options may not be suitable for everyone so we ask if you have any additional questions around next steps for your Nest Protect, you can contact support to get additional details.

We ask that you continue to refer to the guidance of your fire and local authorities and we’ll also share any updates and changes as they arise. 

Thanks,

Rachel

[johnt16]

I'm sure they could, but Scotland & the UK is a very small market for them. 

Personally, and I'm not an expert, just an ordinary citizen, I think it's the standard that's gone too far. It's almost impossible to guarantee compliance in some premises and the Nest alarms are good enough for most situations.

The BS standard also ignores the primary problem with most smoke alarms. In 1000 years' time there will be hundreds of billions of ionisation alarms, still with potentially dangerous emissions in the Americium-241 that powers most cheaper alarms. They're also not so good at detecting dangerous smouldering fires, apparently. 

Anyway, for now, the posters above are right, Google should withdraw the Nest alarms from the UK market and stop retailers defrauding people with expensive devices that do not meet the stupid standard. 

[cskog]

It is not just UK. Much of the U.S. (I'm in New Hampshire) requires a heat detector in the garage. That detector must link to the other smoke detectors in the house. So nobody here in the Northeast can use Nest Protect either 😞

[JASH]

Wait... Nest Protect Gen2 has a heat sensor built in to it so surely as long as you have one in the Kitchen it complies with the Scottish Governments new legislation? 

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9251133?hl=en The legislation just says you need to have a heat detector in the kitchen.. it doesn't say it can't also detect for smoke and carbon monoxide. I bought/ installed the nest protect on this premis if someone from Google can check/ confirm. 

[DeeBee]

The Scottish Government have highlighted that Nest Protect is not compliant (this would include Gen 1 & 2).

"Please note that the Nest Protect System will not meet the standard. This is because they do not meet the requirements for a heat alarm under the relevant British Standard. British Standard (BS 58############:2019) states that only heat alarms should be installed in kitchens.'

So in kitchens only a heat alarm can be fitted, along with a CO detector if required (which doesn't need to be interlinked).

It would appear to me that Google will have to redesign so that Gen 3 has a separate heat alarm, and all devices must have a sealed battery for the battery version of the device ... and perhaps "pathlight" would have to be removed from the battery version to ensure the battery lasts 10 years.

[JASH]

Google advised that Gen2 did have a heat sensor here... "Heat sensor - Heat sensor enables Nest Protect to detect sudden rises in temperature." 

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9251133?hl=en

This was the reason I bought them as they would be compliant with the government's legislation but it now looks like Google are back peddling on this info suggesting now it's wrong. I've contacted Nest support whom have now confirmed that gen2 can only detect smoke and carbon monoxide. They admit it does have a heat sensor but that it only detects smoke, which is nonsense if you read what they were advising previously.

Very misleading and would suggest Google respond. 

[NickB]

See similar discussion here: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Heat-Detectors-to-meet-new-legislation/td-p/5695...

Where people discuss google providing a firmware update to the gen2 to disable the smoke detector, so that only the heat detector operates, as required by the new Scottish legislation. But that has not happened, possibly because it's not possible.

[ScottChina]

Shame on you Google. I have 4x nest cameras, 3x nest protect, 2x nest thermostats and a pixel 6.  I'm going to Alexa ecosytem now. At least I'll be able to buy it all on Amazon as well. 

[diaveldes]

Yes the system doesn't  become defective but as you rightly say it also DOES NOT meet the MANDATORY requirements of the Scottish regulations and so effectively becomes pointless as any home with this system will need to buy a second system that meets the requirements.

[AFU]

Can anyone point to the exact wording that says these are non-compliant. I understand that it will be true in most cases but I really hope that in our specific case we're ok.

We bought 2 Nest Protects, one for our open plan kitchen / living room and one for the hall.  My reading of the regulations is that the one in the open-plan should be a heat alarm, but it doesn't say must. In legislation there is usually a distinction drawn between the meaning of those two word. 

[diaveldes]

Here's the Web link.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/

I can't find a way to post a screen shot. It's specifically mentioned in the where and what to buy. 

[Ballsy]

Here you go.

https://www.mygov.scot/home-fire-safety

[AFU]

Thanks, read that already and that's where it says "should", so as far as I'm concerned I'm ok, but I've emailed the Scottish government advice line in any case.

[diaveldes]

"Should" do you have a context for the should? The requirement is mandatory and the Nest system doesn't meet the requirements? 

[AFU]

My understanding is that yes, in most cases it doesn't comply as it's not a EN rated heat alarm. However, the regulations and guidance clearly state in the case of open plan:

Where a dwelling has an open plan layout, the open plan area will also be used as a circulation space (which could include a stair and landing). The location and siting of smoke alarms and heat detectors should follow both the guidance above and in Clause 2.11.7 to determine the appropriate number of alarms.

Where the access room is a kitchen, the type of detector should be carefully considered to reduce the likelihood of false alarms.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-standards-2017-domestic/2-fire/211-communication/

I'm 100% not saying "I'm right" here, I just think that for our specific case it could be argued that we are compliant. We've had 1 false alarm in the open plan in 2 years, and it was pretty smokey! 

Also, from here:

https://www.mygov.scot/home-fire-safety

Examples

If you live in a one bedroom flat, you will need two smoke alarms and one heat alarm. 

A 3 bedroom, 2 storey house will need 3 smoke alarms and one heat alarm. 

If you have an open plan living room and kitchen you only need to have one alarm in this space and it should be a heat alarm.

Whatever the size your home, if you have a carbon fuelled appliance like a boiler, you will also need a carbon monoxide detector.

Again, should, not must. Other bits of guidance clearly state that the choice of alarm should reflect the lowest risk of false alarm. We have a small kitchen in a big open plan area, I want that to be a smoke alarm, not a heat alarm as it would need to be quite a fire before the heat alarm detected it.

[Maxx]

It clearly says need...

What you need to do

If you are a homeowner, it's your responsibility to make sure your home meets the new fire alarms standard.

By February 2022 every home will need to have:

• 1 smoke alarm in the room you spend most of the day, usually your living room
• 1 smoke alarm in every circulation space on each storey, such as hallways and landings
• 1 heat alarm in the kitchen

All smoke and heat alarms should be mounted on the ceiling and be interlinked.

[DrDreMYI]

I see where you’re coming from but in legal terms “should” indicates an obligation. I also wouldn’t recommend that you base whether your house is insured on Symantics. Lastly, the Scottish government gave made it clear that nest is not currently compliant.

we just need to accept we’ve been abandoned by Google who took our money and ran for the hills.

I’ll be contacting Google to explain that I bought 4 protects with a stated lifespan in  our legal jurisdiction which requires their services to be only and available to deliver all capabilities of the device. In the same way that they should be expected to work as describe for a reasonable period of time… I feel it’s a reasonable expectation that they would ensure continued legal compliance in our jurisdiction or hear the burden of telling us their devices are no longer legal to use.

so which is it Google? Are you negligent in telling us the service we’ve paid for is no longer legal? Or are you negligent is not opening up the platform to allow other systems to fill the gap.

you could have done both of these with minimal effort.

[NickB]

This page https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/ states:
"Please note that the Nest Protect System will not meet the standard. This is because they do not meet the requirements for a heat alarm under the relevant British Standard. British Standard (BS 5839-6:2019) states that only heat alarms should be installed in kitchens."

I'm guessing you're assuming that use of the word 'should' instead of 'must' means you are ok?
Given that both the Scottish Government and Nest themselves have gone to lengths to specifically identify the Nest Protect as not meeting the standard required by the upcoming new law, that seems a tenuous assumption at best. It'll be interesting what further information you get in reply from the Scottish Government to your email....

[AFU]

---

@NickB wrote:

This page https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/ states:
"Please note that the Nest Protect System will not meet the standard. This is because they do not meet the requirements for a heat alarm under the relevant British Standard. British Standard (BS 5839-6:2019) states that only heat alarms should be installed in kitchens."

I'm guessing you're assuming that use of the word 'should' instead of 'must' means you are ok?
Given that both the Scottish Government and Nest themselves have gone to lengths to specifically identify the Nest Protect as not meeting the standard required by the new the law, that seems a tentative assumption at best. It'll be interesting what further information you'll get from the Scottish Government to your email....

---

Precisely. We have building warrant ongoing, so we'll see if that gets approved. If so, then all good.

[NickB]

It's worth noting that above law does not come in to effect until February 2022, though at that point it applies to all homes, not just new/modified homes.

[AFU]

True, but if we get the nod from building warrant I can't see how it could not then be deemed compliant? Certainly as far as insurance is concerned. 

[NickB]

The building warrant will relate only to current law.
The new law, come February, is retroactive and applies to all homes, not just newly built or those having modifications done.

For example my home with 4 wired Nest alarms may comply with current laws, but come February if the above statement from Nest and that Scottish Government website are true then it will no longer be and I will need to replace Nest alarms with a compliant system.

[Ballsy]

I've seen where you get the "should" but it says this:

"What you need to do

If you are a homeowner, it's your responsibility to make sure your home meets the new fire alarms standard.

By February 2022 every home will need to have:

one smoke alarm in the room you spend most of the day, usually your living room

one smoke alarm in every circulation space on each storey, such as hallways and landings

one heat alarm in the kitchen

All smoke and heat alarms should be mounted on the ceiling and be interlinked.

If you have a carbon-fuelled appliance, like a boiler, fire, heater or flue you must also have a carbon monoxide detector. This does not need to be linked to the fire alarms. "

[AFU]

If you have an open plan living room and kitchen you only need to have one alarm in this space and it should be a heat alarm

Should, not must. Yes, it's very tenuous, but the law is always tested on these minutiae. 

[Ballsy]

I think you're holding onto some sort of false hope bud, "should" implies obligation.

The alarms must meet "BS" standards which the nest products don't 🤷🏻‍♂️, even Nest themselves have said their products don't meet this. Regards of your building warrant getting "the nod" your home won't be insured properly or meet the new Scottish legislation.

[AFU]

Quite possibly false hope...

But, Nest Protect is compliant as a smoke alarm, just not a heat detector: 

Google Nest Protect has been tested to comply with certification standards in various regions and countries including the United States, Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom and Australia.

The reliability of your smoke and carbon monoxide alarm is critical to your safety. Certification is a rigorous process, and Protect’s specifications were filed with leading safety certification agencies.

Nest Protect complies with the following smoke and carbon monoxide alarm standards:

• UL 2034, 4th edition – 'Single and multiple station carbon monoxide alarms'
• UL 217, 8th edition – 'Smoke alarms'
• CSA 6.19-17 – 'Residential carbon monoxide alarming devices'
• CAN/ULC-S531-14 – 'Standard for smoke alarms'
• EN-14604:2005 – 'Smoke alarm devices'
• EN-50291-1:2018 – 'Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises'
• AS 3786-2014 – 'Smoke alarms using scattered light, transmitted light or ionisation'

[NickB]

The reason they will not comply with the new law come February is that they do not comply with BS 5839-6:2019, as stated by both Nest themselves and the Scottish Government.

[diaveldes]

Unfortunately unless someone lives in a house without a kitchen (don't know of any personally) then it is no use in Scotland. 

[AFU]

No response yet from the Scottish Government, but our insurance has confirmed they don't care and will still cover us, so I'm not throwing them out yet. 

[ZombieBoy]

Given that we're all here because Nest Smoke Detectors aren't fit for purpose, and were an utter waste of money, what are people looking at as a replacement for them? I certainly don't want to be burned a second time, and I think Google owe us an opportunity to discuss how we can legally protect our homes after buying Nest.

Any recommendations?

[JamesB81]

We can only wish. Google won’t do sh*t

[Tinsoldier82]

Ridiculous as the owner of 7 nest protects I am absolutely outraged

[GeoffC]

mmm.

Good job my nest protects have started to refuse to connect to my router, and I ended up on googlenest looking for a solution.

Only to discover I'm wasting my time!

As someone else has asked, what options do we have in replacement?  I have 10 units destined to become ceiling lights, if only they were powerful enough to allow me to use them jnstead of the ceiling lights.

[billsomervail]

I knew about this problem a year ago, but was not worried as discussions suggested that Nest would:-

1) produce a heat detecter for Nest 

2) activate the suposed Heat dection unit in Nest Protect

3) recomend a Nest compatible Heat Dection unit

It appears that none of these options have been acted upon.

There have only been suggestions that homes using Nest Protect in Scotland will be risking  making their home insurance null and void in evemt of a fire.

Very sad if you live in Scotland with an out of touch Goverment and an in flexible Heat and Smoke alarm supplier.

If anyone can resolve this please help, dont really want to replace my Nest System, but dont want to have to run two systems either.

Regards

Bill Somervail

[coolju]

Hi Google Nest Protect owners in Scotland,

Has anyone actually had any luck with Google Customer Support on this topic? - I contacted them as recommended above by the Community Manager 'RachelC'.

I am still going around in circles with support several months later.

Google Support finally asked me to send my receipts and serial numbers last month for the 9x Nest Protects we own.  As they said they finally DID have a process in place to refund customers.  I immediately sent them.

They then replied back, after chasing, that they actually DIDN'T have a process in place, and had no solution.

Since then they haven't replied to my requests for an update (last reply was 12 days ago).

I really find the way Google is treating Scottish customers on this topic absolutely appalling.  I can't remember the last time I had such poor poor service.

There also seems no way to escalate this issue in Google - unless anyone knows?

A very very frustrated customer...

[Maxx]

I was also a bit shocked at the way such a well known company has treated a country.

Only question i have asked is if you can recycle the 2nd generation Nest protect or are they safe to throw in the trash but never did find out.

Only saving grace is that i found out how bad they are before upgrading to latest phone 😀

[RT15]

Glad I read this before purchasing the Nest. Seems I'll put my cash elsewhere now to avoid buying an expensive ornament!

[FM484]

Hi Rachel, I am affected by the Scottish government stating that Google nest protect do not comply with BS 5839-6:2019, however please note that according to Rules for the structure and drafting of UK standards Table 3 – Verbal forms Verbal form  Implication Typical context 

shall requirement (see  7.2) normative element of a specification or test method 

should recommendation (see  7.3) normative element of a code of practice or guide informative  element of a specification or test method  

7.2 Requirements See the definition given in  3.3.3. The auxiliary verb “shall” is used to  indicate requirements that have to be followed strictly in order to claim compliance with the  document. In British Standards the  auxiliary verb “shall” is  mainly used  in specifications, although it may also be used  in test methods. It should not be used at all  in  codes of practice or guides, or in informative text in any standard. EXAMPLE 1 Connectors shall conform to  the  electrical characteristics specified  in  IEC 60603-7-1. The imperative mood is frequently used to express requirements  in procedures or test methods. EXAMPLE 2 Switch  on the recorder… Do not use “must” as an alternative for “shall”. (This will avoid any confusion between  the requirements of a document and external constraints – see  7.6.) Do not use “may not” instead of “shall not” to express a prohibition. 

7.3 Recommendations See the definition given in  3.3.4. The auxiliary verb “should” is used  to  express recommendations. In a specification or test  method, the auxiliary verb “should”  is used only in informative text (i.e. notes, commentary  or informative annexes). In a specification, recommendations may be used  to indicate  that among several possibilities one is recommended as  particularly suitable, without mentioning  or excluding others, or that a certain course of action is preferred but not necessarily required, or that (in the negative form) a certain possibility or course of action is  deprecated  but not prohibited. In a code of  practice or guide, recommendations constitute the  provisions of the standard and they should therefore not be used in informative text. EXAMPLE  1 (a note in a specification) NOTE  Wiring  of these connectors should take into  account the wire and cable diameter of the cables defined in IEC 61156. EXAMPLE 2  (a provision in a code of practice) Processes should be determined for maintenance and  testing of fire safety systems. 

So the on the basis of the scottish building standard the Google nest protect product should be in compliance albeit has an additional smoke sensor but this is only to prevent false alarms but should this not be down to the owner occupier accepting this additional alarm, for myself I would like to be notified so as I can act on this alarm and prevent potential fire occurring, I can press the mute button if required, so is easily managed.

Another point is I have an open plan kitchen dining main sitting area and therfore requires both heat and smoke alarms and then the Google Nest protect is the alarm which has all necessary sensors for this area plus co2 as an added protection.

I think the product users would also like to know if Google is trying to protect its product and the customers who have purchased them and is Google giving its input to get the building standard formed correctly to ensure we are complying and also not having to double pay for products and the costs which will be associated to redecorate our homes in addition to the impact this may have on the Scottish Google product customers.

Thanks

Frank

[GeoffC]

I've decided my best course of action is to put a compliant set of units alongside the Nest Protect. The Protects are informative and descriptive whilst many other types are not. At least we'll know where trouble is and we don't accidentally run the wrong way! Plus the coloured lights on the Nest are more useful for me as a deaf person.

One issue, @Frank, is the Protects use the router for communication, a supposed weakness according to both Google and the SG.

[FM484]

I believe the router communication was just for sending notifications to your phone and there is a separate interlinking, which does not require WiFi, suppose an easy way to test that is to turn off your WiFi and press the test button on the Protect

[NickB]

Nest alarms to not interconnect with each other using wifi via a home router, that is just for setup and remote notification. They use "Weave" to interconnect which is based on IEEE 802.15.4 and is sort of like "ZigBee".
See my replies earlier in this thread: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect-and-pending-Scottish-leg...
https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect-and-pending-Scottish-leg...