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Updates on Nest Protect and pending Scottish legislation changes

RachelC
Googler
Googler

Hey everyone, 

I appreciate everyone’s patience as they’ve shared their feedback and questions regarding the pending Scottish legislation changes. We’re aware of the proposed legislation changes to the fire and smoke alarm standard in Scotland requiring households to have interlinked heat and smoke alarms. Nest Protect cannot function as a heat alarm due to specific hardware and functional requirements of those devices. So, beginning February 2022,  Nest Protects will not meet these new requirements due lack of interconnection with a compatible heat alarm. 

At this time, there are no current plans to produce a heat alarm and we do understand this is not ideal for many of our Scottish customers, but you can still use your Nest Protect as a smoke and carbon monoxide alarm as an addition to your interconnected system. We understand these options may not be suitable for everyone so we ask if you have any additional questions around next steps for your Nest Protect, you can contact support to get additional details.

We ask that you continue to refer to the guidance of your fire and local authorities and we’ll also share any updates and changes as they arise. 

Thanks,

Rachel

243 REPLIES 243

billsomervail
Community Member

I knew about this problem a year ago, but was not worried as discussions suggested that Nest would:-

1) produce a heat detecter for Nest 

2) activate the suposed Heat dection unit in Nest Protect

3) recomend a Nest compatible Heat Dection unit

It appears that none of these options have been acted upon.

There have only been suggestions that homes using Nest Protect in Scotland will be risking  making their home insurance null and void in evemt of a fire.

Very sad if you live in Scotland with an out of touch Goverment and an in flexible Heat and Smoke alarm supplier.

If anyone can resolve this please help, dont really want to replace my Nest System, but dont want to have to run two systems either.

Regards

 

Bill Somervail

 

 

coolju
Community Member

I still can't believe that Google haven't got their act together on this - it's totally shocking!  I feel like a complete idiot now buying into the Nest Protect system.

I'm still going around in circles with their customer services.

I contacted Google Customer Services again 2 weeks ago, and they told me that they finally had a procedure in place to deal with Scottish Nest Protect Customers (yay!), and asked me to send my receipts and serial numbers.  I sent immediately.  They have now replied that they actually DON'T have a process in place - WTF (sorry), and no solution.  I know that the BBC are investigating this topic, but does anybody know how to escalate above Google Customer Services?  

coolju
Community Member

Hi Google Nest Protect owners in Scotland,

Has anyone actually had any luck with Google Customer Support on this topic? - I contacted them as recommended above by the Community Manager 'RachelC'.

I am still going around in circles with support several months later.

Google Support finally asked me to send my receipts and serial numbers last month for the 9x Nest Protects we own.  As they said they finally DID have a process in place to refund customers.  I immediately sent them.

They then replied back, after chasing, that they actually DIDN'T have a process in place, and had no solution.

Since then they haven't replied to my requests for an update (last reply was 12 days ago).

I really find the way Google is treating Scottish customers on this topic absolutely appalling.  I can't remember the last time I had such poor poor service.

There also seems no way to escalate this issue in Google - unless anyone knows?

A very very frustrated customer...

Maxx
Community Member

I was also a bit shocked at the way such a well known company has treated a country.

Only question i have asked is if you can recycle the 2nd generation Nest protect or are they safe to throw in the trash but never did find out.

Only saving grace is that i found out how bad they are before upgrading to latest phone 😀

RT15
Community Member

Glad I read this before purchasing the Nest. Seems I'll put my cash elsewhere now to avoid buying an expensive ornament!

FM484
Community Member

Hi Rachel, I am affected by the Scottish government stating that Google nest protect do not comply with BS 5839-6:2019, however please note that according to Rules for the structure and drafting of UK standards Table 3 – Verbal forms Verbal form  Implication Typical context 

 
shall requirement (see  7.2) normative element of a specification or test method 
should recommendation (see  7.3) normative element of a code of practice or guide informative  element of a specification or test method  
 
7.2 Requirements See the definition given in  3.3.3. The auxiliary verb “shall” is used to  indicate requirements that have to be followed strictly in order to claim compliance with the  document. In British Standards the  auxiliary verb “shall” is  mainly used  in specifications, although it may also be used  in test methods. It should not be used at all  in  codes of practice or guides, or in informative text in any standard. EXAMPLE 1 Connectors shall conform to  the  electrical characteristics specified  in  IEC 60603-7-1. The imperative mood is frequently used to express requirements  in procedures or test methods. EXAMPLE 2 Switch  on the recorder… Do not use “must” as an alternative for “shall”. (This will avoid any confusion between  the requirements of a document and external constraints – see  7.6.) Do not use “may not” instead of “shall not” to express a prohibition. 
 
7.3 Recommendations See the definition given in  3.3.4. The auxiliary verb “should” is used  to  express recommendations. In a specification or test  method, the auxiliary verb “should”  is used only in informative text (i.e. notes, commentary  or informative annexes). In a specification, recommendations may be used  to indicate  that among several possibilities one is recommended as  particularly suitable, without mentioning  or excluding others, or that a certain course of action is preferred but not necessarily required, or that (in the negative form) a certain possibility or course of action is  deprecated  but not prohibited. In a code of  practice or guide, recommendations constitute the  provisions of the standard and they should therefore not be used in informative text. EXAMPLE  1 (a note in a specification) NOTE  Wiring  of these connectors should take into  account the wire and cable diameter of the cables defined in IEC 61156. EXAMPLE 2  (a provision in a code of practice) Processes should be determined for maintenance and  testing of fire safety systems. 
 
So the on the basis of the scottish building standard the Google nest protect product should be in compliance albeit has an additional smoke sensor but this is only to prevent false alarms but should this not be down to the owner occupier accepting this additional alarm, for myself I would like to be notified so as I can act on this alarm and prevent potential fire occurring, I can press the mute button if required, so is easily managed.
 
Another point is I have an open plan kitchen dining main sitting area and therfore requires both heat and smoke alarms and then the Google Nest protect is the alarm which has all necessary sensors for this area plus co2 as an added protection.
 
I think the product users would also like to know if Google is trying to protect its product and the customers who have purchased them and is Google giving its input to get the building standard formed correctly to ensure we are complying and also not having to double pay for products and the costs which will be associated to redecorate our homes in addition to the impact this may have on the Scottish Google product customers.
 
Thanks
Frank

GeoffC
Community Member

I've decided my best course of action is to put a compliant set of units alongside the Nest Protect. The Protects are informative and descriptive whilst many other types are not. At least we'll know where trouble is and we don't accidentally run the wrong way! Plus the coloured lights on the Nest are more useful for me as a deaf person.

 

One issue, @Frank, is the Protects use the router for communication, a supposed weakness according to both Google and the SG.

FM484
Community Member

I believe the router communication was just for sending notifications to your phone and there is a separate interlinking, which does not require WiFi, suppose an easy way to test that is to turn off your WiFi and press the test button on the Protect

NickB
Community Member

Nest alarms to not interconnect with each other using wifi via a home router, that is just for setup and remote notification. They use "Weave" to interconnect which is based on IEEE 802.15.4 and is sort of like "ZigBee".
See my replies earlier in this thread: https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect-and-pending-Scottish-leg...
https://www.googlenestcommunity.com/t5/Nest-Protect/Updates-on-Nest-Protect-and-pending-Scottish-leg...




GeoffC
Community Member

Nest Fire Alarms Are Wi-Fi Interlinked

Google Nest Protect system can be wirelessly interlinked to create a safe circuit around your home, by fitting different Nest Smoke alarms units in different areas. However, this does not comply with the Scottish Legislation 2022 as the wireless fire alarms should connect through an internal circuit of radio-frequencies, while Nest Smoke Alarms use the Wi-Fi of your home.

In case there is a blaze in your home which starts from your router, the Nest Smoke Alarms would not be able to communicate the danger as the Wi-Fi communication could be faulty.

 

That's the section I  was referring to. Perhaps Fireguard have it wrong?

NickB
Community Member

Yes, I believe that Fireguard have that wrong. Nest protect devices interconnect with each other using "Weave" IEEE 802.15.4 RF, not Wi-fi. So in that regard they do comply with the legislation.

Quoting from https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9232615?hl=en#zippy=%2Chow-nest-protects-connect-with-e...

 

Nest Protects connect wirelessly using a Nest-developed protocol called Weave that lets Nest Protects communicate with one another safely and securely without an active Wi-Fi connection.

Weave uses 802.15.4 and Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g/n to create reliable, flexible, secure and low-power communication between Protects.

You can think of the 802.11b/g/n protocol as the connection that communicates with the outside world and performs tasks like automatically updating Nest Protect software or allowing you to get mobile notifications on your phone. You can think of the 802.15.4 protocol as the low-power connection that lets Nest Protects communicate with each other.

This means your Protects can continue to talk to one another, and can let you know when smoke or carbon monoxide is detected in other parts of the home, even if your Wi-Fi network goes down.

 

That they do not have a heat only alarm, and having a user replaceable battery model, is a different matter, and don't comply with the legislation.

JoeMcDougall
Community Member

Absolutely appalled by this announcement. 

Aside from the "two fingers" to Scottish users, and no consideration to English rules around newbuilds, ALL your customers would be safer with this feature.

Google just don't care.

I'm beyond cross at the corporate disregard for safety.

I don't think the safety is being jeopardised by using Nest Protect, as the only issue is there is an additional smoke alarm in a kitchen which may potentially cause a nuisance to the homeowner, personally I want a smoke alarm in my kitchen as my children's bedrooms are above and the smoke alarm may give me more time should there ever be a fire, of there is any other known safety issue then building standards would have highlighted that as a reason for stating it is in non compliance, also the BS standards which they have used is just recommendations, I can see why this may be a nuisance in a central fire alarm system in a block of flats, but not one family home. 

What I understand is a smoke alarm is the first indicator should a fire be starting or you are burning your toast (either way I'd like to know) and a heat alarm tells you your house is on fire.

Madmax
Community Member

This is very poor from a company like google but at least i am within the 14 days to return my set of nest alarms.

This also has an impact on buying any more google products in the future.

GeoffC
Community Member

I notice the Nest Protect is still a best buy according to Which. At least I've not noticed any 'warning' on its drawbacks.

tomrup
Community Member

coolju
Community Member

In relation to the 'Which?' consumer association article on this topic, where Google promises refunds, has anybody actually received a refund from Google?

I have been liaising now with Google Support on this topic since Sept 2021 (when I first learnt of this compliance issue), first for a product solution, then in Nov 2021 they finally offered a refund (for 9 units) as their only solution.  I then bought a compliant FireAngel Pro system at additional expense to replace the Google Nest Protect system.

I have sent (as per each of Goggle Support's requests) ALL receipts, serial numbers, photos of serial numbers on units, and re-activated a Gpay account for the refund.

Finally on the 7th Jan 2022 I received an email to say that my refund/return had been finally approved - Great!!

Then today (19th Jan 2022) I received another email saying:

"we regret to inform you that we can no longer proceed with it. We can only process refunds for those Nest Protects that were purchased on Google Store"

WTF!! (excuse my language).  The Google Customer Support communication is an absolute mess.  I have wasted so much time on this going around in circles.

Anyway:

1 - Has anyone actually had any success with promised Google Nest Protect refunds?

2 - Does anyone know how to escalate this in Google, as Google Support is completely incompetent.

They've already agreed to it in writing and you've taken action on that basis.

Send a Letter Before Action by register post to their UK HQ.

Thanks, good idea.  Will do.

billsomervail
Community Member

Hi Rachel,

I bought 6 Nest Protects in 2020 to add to my Nest Thermostat, Nest Cameras and Nest Aware system and to be ready for Scottish Law Changes due in Feb2021. Fortunately I am in touch with circumstances and realised they were not going to be compliant so didn't fit them. When the law changes were delayed for a year I expected Google to release a compliant Heat Detector for Kitchens. This is obvoiusly not going to happen. I would like to know why not, is Scottish market just to small for Google?

If I decide on a competitor for my heat and smoke detection, I guess I will have to gradually replace Google, Cameras and Google Thermostat and Google Aware if I want one system and one App.

I work in ECO market mak a lot of recomendations, i am extremely disappointed that I will have to stop recomending Googe.   

 Please le me know if Google is going to allow a heat detector to be intergrated before Feb 2022.

 

Regards

Bill Somervail 

I believe Google/Nest have already stated they won't be adding any heat detector.

According to Which : Refunds for owners of the Nest Protect smoke & CO alarm We spoke to Google about this. Google told us that any customers who purchased a Nest Protect smoke and carbon monoxide alarm in the past three years who wish to return their device should contact the Google customer service team for a full refund.

 

Bought mine June 2017!

DeeBee
Community Member

I contacted Nest on 30 May 2018 about the fact that their devices will not be compliant in Scotland, to which I got this reply (which I passed to the Scottish Government).

"I am sorry that at the moment the Nest Protect Smoke + CO Alarm does not comply with all the rules and regulation in Scotland. I have already forwarded your feedback to the team responsible and can assure you that it will be taken into account for future improvements of our products. I hope that this will be resolved soon."

That was over three and a half years ago, and nothing has been done in that time.

Poor.

DeeBee
Community Member

 

According to the article below dated 14/12/21 on Which website ...

Refunds for owners of the Nest Protect smoke & CO alarm

We spoke to Google about this. Google told us that any customers who purchased a Nest Protect smoke and carbon monoxide alarm in the past three years who wish to return their device should contact the Google customer service team for a full refund.

www.which.co.uk/news/2021/12/new-scottish-smoke-and-heat-alarm-laws-everything-you-need-to-know/

Maxx
Community Member

This is the real problem!

We have all known for years, and Google have not even tried to to make Nest products compliant.

LNP459
Community Member

I suspect that the word interconnect is the key here. Nest Protect is interconnected with each other and also with my phone giving alerts to me. If I install a heat detector which also connects with my phone, then they are all interconnected. Does Nest intend to allow IFTTT connectivity?

DrDreMYI
Community Member

Sadly IFTTT wouldn’t be enough as it requires connectivity and the rules require local inter connectivity… so the weave protocol.  I can’t see this happening.

LNP459
Community Member

If Nest interconnects both within itself and also with my phone to provide an alert, then if I add a standalone heat detector which also connects to my phone, surely they are all interconnected through the phone? 

Does Nest intend to permit IFTTT connectivity?

IFTTT would require Internet connectivity. Think you'd have to link them by whatever the use for direct connection in order to be compliant.

Tks for reply. Not sure legislation is specific on means of interconnectivity?

You are correct! I'm really surprised that the means isn't specified.

 

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/advice-and-guidance/2019/02/fir...

"16.11. Interlinked: Interconnected alarms which communicate with each other and form an integrated system of protection in the home, so that when one alarm detects a fire, all alarms operate simultaneously. Alarms can be interlinked via wires (hardwired) or wirelessly (by radio communication). Where adding to an existing hardwired system, care should be taken to ensure that all alarms are interlinked, with all alarms sounding when any one device is activated."

I guess that since wifi is radio, it complies.

Personally I'd not be happy with a solution requiring the Internet, or a wifi access point. I'd only be happy with devices that are connected through a peer to peer system such as Zigbee.

There are standard numbers listed for each component, so those would need to comply. 

I'm really surprised the legislation doesn't clarify what they mean by "radio".

 

I think the purpose of the legislation is to demand direct connectivity between the devices without the need for critical 3rd party components like access points snd routers, rather than to dictate an actual protocol. After all, other devices exist which do this already …. It’s just that Google won’t add the missing piece of the puzzle.

What the government has done is right by not unnecessarily dictating a protocol.

DrDreMYI
Community Member

From the legislation;

Interlink: Smoke and heat alarms must either be interlinked by cable or by wireless radio-frequency interlink.

I personally also wouldn’t want to depend on my internet connection, a 3rd party cloud services provider and 109% operational end to rnd events during to get my alarms off. That’s a pop at Google, not anyone here. I know everyone here wants this fine right by Google… not to fake the rules.

 

but let’s face it… it’s too late for Google to do anything but count their money. I for one will not knowingly put a penny in their pockets again.

They've been quite clear that they don't give a **bleep**.

Not about complying with the law in Scotland.

Not even complying in England (these regs are similar to English new build and major renovation requirements)

Not about the fact these rules bring actual safety benefits, and are the right thing to do.

They just wanted to make spy devices masquerading as safety equipment.

I feel so foolish for trusting them in the first place. I spent nearly a grand getting Nest across the house.

What was I thinking? Trusting an advertising company with my safety.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/12/new-scottish-smoke-and-heat-alarm-laws-everything-you-need-to-k...

In the above Which say that Google have said that you can return Nest Protect units that were bought in the last 3 years

MRTMoe
Community Member

Bought my 8 nest protects 4 years ago so they’re not even halfway through their lifespan and yet are useless in relation to the upcoming law 😞

GeoffC
Community Member

Indeed. Mine (9) are 4-5 years old.

Changed batteries only in 2 of them in that time.

Spawned
Community Member

Welcome to 2022!

 

As it seems, we still have no answer from Google on what are the next steps for people stuck with 3+ Nest Protect devices that are no longer in compliance with the new regulations. Hard to say, but I have never been let down by Google and to be honest, I can't blame them for this situation this time. Regulations changed and we are together in this without clear solution. I'm not sure how viable it is for Google to manufacture heat detector only variation of Nest Protect, unless more countries follow the suit with the new regulations in Scotland. Gutted, as I love all the features of Google products, especially having them linked to Hassio.

Another country has - these are a requirement of new build and significant refurbishment in England.

DeeBee
Community Member

I informed Nest in May 2018 that their device wouldn't be compliant, and probably somebody informed them before me.

As per my post above, as per Which you can return your Nest Protect devices for a refund.

As for Nest / Google not having a compliant heat detector then the new regulations in Scotland & England were brought in for a reason, and Google Protect first and foremost should protect people, not just look good, link well into a smart home, and provide sizeable profits.

There's also the issue that you can remove the battery from the battery version of the product, and this is a big failing in smoke/heat/CO detectors. Not everybody wants, or can, run wires throughout their house.

NickB
Community Member

I contacted Google about the refund mentioned in the Which article and got the following reply:

 

Nick: So, is the information in the Which article about devices less than 3 years old being refunded correct? Or is that also limited to only devices bought direct from Google?

 

Google Support: I'm sorry but I can't comment about the post. The refund of the Nest Protects are covered for devices shipped through Google Store only. 

 

So it appears if your device was bought from an other retailer (Amazon, John Lewis, etc) or is more than 3 years old, no refund is available. 😞